Haven War Rules
Generation 7 - Much Better than CATS


Haven War is a tribute to an old-school online game; one of a million clones and variations of the 'build and conquer' games appearing in various online communities.

Like every other game, your object in Haven War is to win. You do this by building up your personal kingdom and, if you are so inclined, attacking and destroying the livelihood of other players. This is a game of war, and you will be attacked, whether you attack anyone or not.

Game Basics:

The game is broken up into Turns. Public players will receive 5 turns per day. Haven subscribers will receive more as thanks for their support of the site, once we get subscriptions working, that is.



Assets:

Land
The amount of land you own. Your land supplies food to your populace, it also encourages tourists to move in.

Coin
How rich you are. There is only one denomination of currency here, generically termed 'Coin' to avoid confusion. Coin is generated by taxing your population, selling goods, stealing, or pillaging during battles.

Populace
Your people. They love you at first... be sure to feed them or that love will quickly turn to hate.

Nobles
The 'rich' portion of your Populace. They will not lift a finger to harvest food, in fact they spend most of their time eating - a ton. However, they are indeed rich, so their contributions to your tax pool are much greater. Unless the food runs out, they're happy.

Castle
Represented as a percentage of completion (from 0% to 100%), your Castle is your ultimate defense against attacks. Your Castle does require some monetary upkeep every turn, so don't build more than you can sustain.



Army Forces:

Warriors
Typical grunts of your Army. They're cheap, they're reliable, they're easy targets for any special attacks. They defend just as well as they attack, and they're cheap to feed and pay. Stock up on them.

Knights
Horse-mounted Warriors that think something of themselves. They fight and defend better than Warriors but their food and payroll costs are reflective of this extra skill.

Rogues
Stealthy sneaky little thieves. In battle, they are more offensive than defensive. Their real strength comes through their covert Missions that can aid you in many ways. Their upkeep reflects their skillsets, so be prepared before you buy some.

Rangers
Masters of the bow, Rangers are a formidable force, able to incapacitate Knights and Warriors in battle. They are more offensive than defensive. Their upkeep is higher than Knights.

Wizards
Spell slingers to the n'th degree, Wizards are an enormous addition to your Army. In battle, they can incapacitate a large number of enemies. Wizards love their Spell Components - if you give them enough resources to work with, they will craft some VERY powerful spells, at the high end capable of winning battles and damaging/destroying your enemy's Castle. Wizards are not cheap to have around but they are worth it.

Undead
Mindless zombie servants that are more powerful than Warriors but not quite as powerful as Knights. They do not require a payroll. However, they do require something to maintain their animation......

Mercenary Forces
Mercenaries (new in Gen 7) are identical units of Warriors, Knights, Rogues, Rangers, and Wizards. They will defend you, or they can go to battle with you. Their purchase and upkeep are more than regular forces, but they are not constrained by your Property License. You can have as many as you want...



Staff:

Necromancers
Masters of death magic, the purpose of your Necromancers is to add fresh Undead to your Army at the end of each battle. They can also serve a defensive purpose by mesmerizing attacking undead forces.

Clerics
Masters of life magic, the Clerics revive your fallen after the battle is over. Unlike Necromancers, those that a Cleric revives will retain their function and power rather than becoming a mindless zombie warrior. Clerics also act in the defense of their home by dispelling undead forces.

Bards
Minstrels that boost the Morale of your Army during battles, Bards come with a chip on their shoulder - they hate Wizards. They will do anything in their power to stop an enemy Wizard from attacking during battle.

Enchanters
Masters of the mind, Enchanters can stop a group of attackers dead in their tracks, mesmerizing and lulling them into a stupor, rendering them useless. Some might even change sides and fight for you! Enchanters are purely Defensive, they will not march with your battle if you attack another.

Castle Guards
Steadfast centurions that guard your homelands and, eventually, your Castle. Guards are pure Defense, they will not march with your Army should you go to war.

Gnomes
Annoying little pests, Gnomes will clutter your Castle and make you wonder why you ever bothered buying them.. that is, until they start making you stuff. Gnomes are master researchers in munitions and defense capabilities. They utilize Raw Materials and sheer manpower (Gnomepower?) to create Offensive and Defensive units that can greatly help your efforts.



Turns/Phases:

Each Turn is broken down into several Phases, accessible via the main play menu:

Start Phase, Page 1
On the first page of the Start Phase, you will be notified if anyone attacked you since your last turn. Your current statistics and Property License is also shown. If you have violated your Property License you will receive notice from Squeegle Flabergam and either receive a warning, or a fine.

Start Phase, Page 2
On the second screen of the Start Phase, you will be shown that turn's season report as well as the results of your Population growth, Food Production, Taxation, any developments of your Gnomish and Wizard research teams, and any developments in your Rogues' abilities, if applicable.

On this screen you can modify your Tax Rate. Keep in mind that if you tax your population too much, they may start liking you less. As you progress to higher ranks in the game, your population will become less and less tolerant of higher taxes, so keep this in mind as you decide to change the tax rate. Overtaxation is also a cause for some splinter groups in your population to revolt. You were warned.

Main Play Menu
After the Start Phase is over you will be presented with the main play menu. From here you have access to any part of your turn. Do some of it, do none of it, do all of it, it's your choice.

Visit Squeegle
Step into Squeegle's office if you want to review your current Property License, or see what you need to upgrade to a higher license.

The Market
The Market allows you to sell off your inventory, and subsequently buy new stuff! Be careful not to spend all of your coin; you will need some for Upkeep at the end of your turn!

On this screen you will be shown a Friendly Upkeep Reminder allowing you to avoid overspending. If you get to Upkeep and can't afford to feed or pay your forces, don't come crying to us.. you were warned ahead of time! Optional to the crying, though, you can return to The Market and sell more stuff if you need coin.

The Market: Sell Screen
On this screen, you have the option of selling off your inventory. Your current inventory as well as the sell cost is displayed. As you advance up the ranks, your items may be worth less on the selling block.

At the bottom of the sell screen, a running tally will be calculated to show you how much total coin you will have if you sell the requested inventory.

You are allowed to sell most of your inventory items. Land and Castle, being the determining factors of your Property Licenses, cannot be sold.

The Market: Buy Screen
On this screen, you have the option of selling off your inventory. Your current inventory as well as the buy cost is displayed.

The page will also show you the max of each item that you can afford. It will automatically calculate to avoid you going "over" your Property License (example: You have 900 Warriors. The most you can have in your current Property License is 1000, so the Buy Screen will display 100 as the max that you can afford, even if you have coin to buy 500 of them).

As you make purchase selections, the calculations will automatically adjust to show new allowances based on your balance.

At the bottom of the buy screen, a running coin tally will be calculated to show you how much coin you will have left if you buy the requested items.

The Factory
The Factory is where your Gnomes make stuff for you. In the past, they would make this decision themselves. However, regulations changed when the Gnomes insisted on creating nothing but flower pots and automated bird feeders. Instead, they now make Gnomish Production Cubes.

These universal building blocks can morph into any shape you desire. Simply instruct them what you want done with the Cubes, and they comply. Or else.

Similar to The Market, your inventory may be capped in relation to your social rank. Don't like it? Take it up with Squeegle.

The Tavern
The Tavern is the meeting place of all locals in your kingdom's area. You can meet some interesting people in the Tavern... also, you can play games (within a game, imagine the possibilities) once they're finished.

The Temple
The Haven Temple of the Apocalyptic Kiwifruit has been discovered in the lands. This is the last bastion of religion in a land that is torn by war and greed. Perhaps you could befriend the Temple for your own gains...?

Deploy the Rogues
If you have Rogues, you can send them on various covert missions to learn about your enemies, or cause them some level of harm. The more Rogues you send on a mission, the better chance you will have of success, but be warned that the greater numbers also make it easier to be caught!

View Mission Types

Prepare for War
This is when you decide if you want to send your Army into battle. Peace is the default, but if you choose to attack, assign your forces and send them on their way! Unless the gods intervene, your attacking forces are pitted against the defenses of your enemy.. and if you win, you will walk off with more Land, Food, and Coin as well as the prestige of slaughtering someone.

Play with Fate: Armageddon
If your Gnomes have made an Armageddon Device, you have opportunity to activate the device. If someone else has already activated a G.A.D., you will have to wait until theirs gets deactivated before you activate your own.

It's advised that you have a substantial defensive force before activating the Device...

Wrap Up Turn: Upkeep
This is where your Populace, Army, and Staff demand their food and pay. This is also where you pay for the cost of maintaining your Castle as well as your Undead forces. Failure to provide the necessary funds will have dire consequences, however, being generous may have its rewards as well!

Wrap Up Turn: Upkeep Results
On this screen you will see the results of your Upkeep allocations. If you met the requirements there will be no dire consequences.

However, if you failed to meet the minimum requirements, the appropriate consequences will be displayed on this screen.

This is also the screen where your Army will desert you if their Morale gets too low. They gave you one last chance to up their Morale, and if you failed to take advantage of that, they're gone.

End Phase
This is just a wrap-up giving you another view of your overall stats before ending the turn.

Special Events
Occasionally, you may become the target of a NPC attack. Giant Army Ants, Orcs, Trolls... who knows what might come to raid your lands!

Successfully defeating the NPC forces generally brings a generous coin reward!



Rogue Mission Types:

Spy - This is the most rudimentary mission; learn about an enemy. If successful, you will be told about their forces, as well as the strength of their research teams. Failure will produce no results, or questionably accurate information.

Propaganda - This mission attempts to demoralize your enemy's population and army. This can be very useful prior to attack.

Sabotage - This mission quite simply sends rogues to attempt to destroy property owned by your enemy. Land, Gnomish Devices, Raw Materials, and Spell Components are their targets; even the enemy's Castle may suffer some damage from their sabotaging.

Steal - Self explanatory; send rogues to steal enemy Coin. They may also bring back a Gnomish Device or two.

Assassinate - A single rogue mission to kill some of your enemy's staff. This is the only way for Cleric, Necromancers, Bards, and Enchanters to die, so you might think about this one occasionally.

Mayhem - This is the ultimate rogue mission. It requires 100 rogues and is quite risky; but a successful Mayhem mission will cause all sorts of chaos for your enemy. Things will be destroyed, forces might be killed, and morale might go down. It's Rogues Gone Wild! Now on vide... er, nevermind.



Gnomish Devices: Offense

Mechanical Rats
Minimum Research Level: 1
Mechanical Rats are the easiest Offense device to create. They're small, they're easily destroyed, but if they aren't countered, they can cause some nasty bruises for your enemy!

Metallic Golems
Minimum Research Level: 2
Metallic Golems are behemoths that mindlessly march into battle, destroying anything in their path if not stopped.

Cruise Missles
Minimum Research Level: 3
Cruise Missiles are the penultimate regular Offensive device that your gnomes can create. If not stopped after launch, these Missiles cause a great deal of damage to your enemy's forces, as well as doing damage to their Castle.

Armageddon Device
Minimum Research Level: 3 + (other requirements)
The Armageddon Device is THE ultimate Offensive device that a Level 3 Gnomish Research Team "could" create. The Armageddon Device has one purpose; destroy the world. Once activated, the clock starts ticking. If the Device isn't deactivated (or stopped), the current Generation ends when it explodes.



Gnomish Devices: Defense

Minor Metallic Regurgitators
Minimum Research Level: 1
Minor Metallic Regurgitators were created to scoop up and destroy Mechanical Rats. If there are no Mechanical Rats to injest, the Regurgitators go for the next best thing; armor, swords, etc.

Acid Spritzers
Minimum Research Level: 2
Acid Spritzers were developed as a means to stop Metallic Golems. If there are no Golems to stop, the metal-seeking Spritzers will spray down any nearby metal objects. Generally the flesh inside those metal objects doesn't react well to acid...

Advanced Optic Beam Generator
Minimum Research Level: 3
The Beam Generators are designed to shoot down incoming Cruise Missiles. Lacking any Missiles to destroy, the cruel Gnomes that operate the Generators will turn their attention towards ground level, zapping any attacking forces that they see.



Gnomish Devices: Other

Coin Press
Minimum Research Level: 2
The Coin Press was developed out of sheer greed. Your Gnomes thought that Coins were shiny, and they wanted to keep them. You wouldn't let them, so they developed this to produce their own. Secretly they produce coins equal to 25% of your taxation, but after Gnomish Union Dues and other miscellaneous fees, the net Coin you will see every turn is more like 1-7% of that turn's Tax.

Stealth Detection Units
Minimum Research Level: 2
The Stealth Detection units were developed to detect that which is undetectable. Somehow the Artificial Intelligence built into these Detector units knows what a human can and cannot "normally" detect. Unfortunately, the only known application for these Detectors have been to catch Rogues sneaking around on the lands. Oh well.

Weather Manipulation Balloon
Minimum Research Level: 2
The Weather Manipulation Balloon floats high over your lands, influencing your weather (for the good). The effect isn't gigantic, more like a gentle nudge to nature to get slightly better weather than you would have normally.



Rankings:

How do you win? Why, be the best, of course. The game is overseen by Squeegle Flabergam, the Commissioner of the Haven Property Council. He has developed seven Social Ranks, and controls Property Licenses for each rank.

You will start off with a License for a Hovel, along with starting resources. Read your Property License carefully for instructions on how to proceed. As you advance, you will receive Licenses for an Encampment, Settlement, Village, Town, Province, and finally a Kingdom. The higher your Rank, the better you're doing, and the better you'll be able to equip yourself to defend against the other players.

Once you reach Kingdom level, you are afforded some additional luxuries. For all intents and purposes, your offensive Army is not capped, should you be able to afford to hire the forces. Also, a Kingdom is the only rank that is capable of attacking backwards; that is, a Kingdom can attack a Province.

Being at the top does have its disadvantages, however, as you will pay a premium for the luxury that you enjoy.

There is a scoring system that awards points for successful rogue missions and attacks. Achieving certain goals will also provide a score boost as well.

At the end of the Generation, whoever has the best Kingdom will be considered the 'winner' and added to the Haven War Hall of Fame!

Good Luck!



Beta Winners

Generation 1 and 2 was a wash. Too many things to work out to be competitive. I'm pretty sure I was on top for those, but that's not saying anything.
Generation 3 was won by DaraData with Gnomish Armageddon on 10/18/2004.
Generation 4 was shortlived and won by Polly Ester with Gnomish Armageddon on 11/14/2004.
Generation 5 lasted forever, mostly because the Gnomish Armageddon Devices were broken. I pulled the plug on 10/1/05. Congrats to Alvar on his win!

Generation 6 was won by QuietHeart with Gnomish Armageddon on 10/31/2005.









Changes:

Generation 2
- There was a name change from Guild War to Haven War to eliminate some naming issues.
- Predominate amongst the changes is the new Ranking system. Squeegle Flabergam of the Haven Property Council has moved in and drawn up some property regulations.
- New players start out with a Property License for a Hovel. While possessing a Hovel, you will enjoy the Protection of the Gods. Once you advance, your Protection ends.
- New Property Licenses will be earned at the end of each turn, if the qualification is met. A word of caution; don't advance until you are ready to...
- There are seven social Ranks, divided by the types of Property: Hovel, Encampment, Settlement, Village, Town, Province, and finally Kingdom.
- The final rank, Kingdom, has the largest allowances for resources, and also carries two additional caveats. First, finishing 100% of your Castle, provides a significant defensive advantage. Second.. well, you'll see.
- Each Property License brings with it certain limits of Population, Land, Army, Staff, and Castle sizes. Violating your License by having greater than your allowed resources will result in a visit from the Haven Property Council.
- If, during battle, your social rank drops (due to Land loss, etc), you will be given a one turn amnesty to qualify for your original License before the HPC visits.
- To prevent bottom-feeding, or picking on those of lower status than yourself, you can only Attack those in the same social Rank or one Rank above you. While this affords those below you the ability to attack you with impunity, just remember, eventually they will be in your social rank and revenge is sweet...
- The exception to the above is that the final rank, Kingdom, will be allowed to attack Provinces. Once you advance that high, you can take care of yourself.
- You will be able to send your Rogues against any enemy, regardless of Rank. However, if there is a great difference between Ranks, the results may be reduced out of fairness.
- A 'Property License' screen has been inserted immediately after the beginning screen, detailing the limits of your current License, and providing notes from Squeegle Flabergam should you violate your License.
- A 'pre-battle' screen has been inserted. Wizard spell memorizations have been moved to this area, eliminating waste of Spell Components.
- Rogue Missions have been expanded with two new missions: the Assassination mission, targeting the enemy's clerics, necromancers, bards, castle guards, and enchanters. The second mission is called Mayhem, which is somewhat self-explanatory.
- Rogues getting captured 'may' change allegiances. If you capture Rogues and manage to turn them to your side, they will be added to your army.
- Level 2 Gnomish Research has developed a new device: the Gnomish Stealth Detection Unit. These units make it more difficult for enemy Rogues to penetrate your property.
- Added a 'View Statistics' option to the main Haven War Menu to allow you to see your stats without actually playing a turn.
- Fixed several small issues, such as the attack notification that failed to properly identify when you successfully defend yourself.

Generation 3
Added 8/22:
- Provided a way to go back to Buy/Sell if you accidentally advance to the Upkeep screen.
- Added a few extra turns for anyone not able to play for an extended period of time. It's not much, but it will help you catch up.
- Adjusted the strength of some of the NPCs.
- The Gnomish Labor Union, under pressure from the Haven Property Commission, has reduced the price of their Raw Materials.
- Raised the Population Cap of all ranks.
- Beat the populace with wet straps of licorice to encourage greater food production. It's not much, but some > none.
- Encouraged the nobles to pony up more money come tax time. Don't ask us how we encouraged them.

Added 8/15:
- Provided your sages with the ability to predict the weather.
- Added a calculation to your Upkeep page to assist in your allocations of food/coin.
- Slight re-modification of morale changes given by overfeeding/paying.
- Added the Property License overview to the end of turn screen, as well as the Statistics page.
- Added some extra turns for those coming back after an extended absence to help them catch up. It's not much, but it should help.

Other Gen 3 Tweaks:
- Slight tweaks to the ranking/attacking system. It should be where we want it now.
- Slight increase to population income & food production levels.
- Slight tweak to the weather; you shouldn't see harsh seasons as much as before.
- Moved the Property License (and subsequent License Violations) to the opening screen of each turn.
- Modified morale adjustment from overfeeding/overpaying. Giving your population 1 extra food isn't going to have the same effect as it did before. Likewise, not feeding them at all will have more substantial consequences.
- Modified the rates of wizard/gnome research advancement and requirements. It's now easier than before. Not too much, but enough.
- Made some Rogue Missions easier to succeed.
- Allow a chance for some captured Rogues to Escape and return to you.
- Reduced the efficiency of the Gnomish Stealth Detection Units and capped how many you may possess. (They were overpowered.)
- Made it easier for Wizards to memorize their spells for your attacks.
- A cap was applied to how many undead you can possess, also made it easier to get rid of them if you don't want them.
- A cap was applied to battle casualties; the days of sending 1 warrior into battle to cause 500 casualties is gone.

Other Gen 3 Additions:
- Level 2 Gnomish Research has developed a new device: the Gnomish Weather Manipulation Balloon. The Balloon will enhance your weather.
- Level 2 Gnomish Research has developed a new device: the Gnomish Coin Press. The Coin Press will enhance your coin production every turn, adding to the tax turned in from your people.
- Level 3 Gnomish Research has developed a new device: the Gnomish Armageddon Device. Activating this device will start a countdown to destruction. Unless stopped, the Device will cause Gnomish Armageddon, ending the Generation.
- Added a point system back into the game to help determine rank. Winning attacks / accomplishing certain tasks will earn points. Likewise, losing attacks will cause a point reduction. At the end of the Generation, the player with the highest point value wins, regardless of property license.
- Added random attacks by NPCs. This will take place during your Attack phase.
- The Attack results screen will now display casualties of those Players you attack.
- Added a 'Smack Talk' message area to allow players to.. communicate.. with one another.

Generation 4
Hotfix 11/8:
- Flogged the gnomes for assembling when they should be dismantling.
- Showed rogues the proper way to hide behind trees. They should actually advance now.
- Gnomish Conundrum will be a Gen 5 thing.. sorry.

Added 10/31:
- Added the first of several special events: the Peasant Revolt.
- Fixed an issue with the Dwarf from the tavern.
- Added Food to the pillaging after a successful battle. If you're taking coin, might as well take their food also.
- Gnomish Conundrum is coming within the next day or so......

Other Gen 4 Additions:
- Added a cheesy title graphic and formatted the main game menu!
- Probably the most significant (and time consuming) change is that we made the game less linear. Once you start your turn you will face a menu of options. All of the old functionality is there, have at it.
- With the above, you can enter the Tavern, Factory, and Market as many times throughout your turn as you wish.
- Change Gnomish creations a bit, putting the control of WHAT is made into the player's hands rather than the gnome's. Now, gnomes will make "production cubes" that you can use to make specific items.
- With that said, "special" gnome devices (balloon, coin press, armageddon) are not player created - the gnomes have to have some dignity, even though they are gnomes.
- New areas created: the Tavern, and the Factory. The Tavern is a social hangout, who knows what you might find there as the weeks progress.. or who you might meet. The Factory is the Gnomes' hangout, where you can instruct them how to build your requested items.
- Upkeep was moved to the end of turn phase for lack of a better place to put it without opening up exploits.
- Storage Units were created. You need to have sufficient storage if you want to hoard food, raw materials, or spell components.
- Tweaked Wizard spell memorization, they were being a little too lazy.
- Added Stealth levels for the Rogues, much like the Spell/Gnome Research levels. Increasing in Stealth levels will open up more missions and, hopefully, make it easier to succeed in them.
- As mentioned, not all rogue missions will be immediately available until they level up.
- Reduced the effectiveness of the Propaganda and part of the Sabotage mission.
- Added five 'heroes' for lack of a better term. What they do is up to you to discover.
- Removed NPC attacks from your Attack phase. They aren't gone.. they're just no longer going to interrupt your ability to attack other folks. We like chaos, so this helped.
- No changes were made to the point system at this time.
- Tweaked the Smack Talk msg forum a bit. All visual and logistic changes.
- Stuff not listed here. It'll be listed later (and the rules will be revised).

Generation 5 aka Generation 4, take 2
- Revised Morale issues and taxation to prevent premature kingdomizationalism scenarios. You might think twice before overtaxing your people now.
- Added a switch to The Factory to allow toggling research efforts and production efforts.
- Further adjustments to research (and stealth) gains.
- NPC attacks have returned. We made it a bit more fair this time around. But just a bit.
- Slightly raised the cost of the hired 'Hero' characters in the Tavern.
- Slightly reduced the effectiveness of the Dwarf Hero.

Generation 6
- Fixed the Gnomish Armageddon Device. Apparently the Gnomes didn't connect the 'on' switch properly.
- Gnomish Conundrum added to the Tavern. Win prizes or.. something.. playing this little game that the Gnomes use for human research.
- Fixed the purchase cost of the 5 original 'Hero' characters. While their prices were raised in Gen 5, the revised coin amount was never removed from your bank account.
- Added two new 'Hero' characters. Where they are and what they do is up to you to discover.
- Addressed defense at the Kingdom level; your clerics will take a more active role against invading undead.
- Raised the cost of army units above the "soft cap" of the Kingdom license.
- Added a religious institution to the lands. Who knows what could be in that place.

Generation 7
- Property Licenses no longer automatically upgrade. You have to visit Squeegle and deliberately upgrade. Downgrades are still automatic, however.
- Replaced the hard cap for Kingdom armies. Too many 'workarounds' to exploit the cap.
- Added a Back Alley Market - where you can purchase Mercenaries and other sundry items. Access via the Tavern.
- Added some specialty Rogue Missions - Assassination missions can specify the staff member they would like dead (i.e. Gnomes) - resulting in a more difficult mission, but more of your target will be killed. Also added the ability to Assassinate enemy Hero units, and Sabotage a Gnomish Armageddon Device - however, those require a successful, recent Spy mission before you can send your rogues out on these. There's also a rather hefty rogue requirement.
- Modified the turn checking script to make sure your last turn's Upkeep was paid prior to allowing a new turn - fixing another 'workaround'.
- Modified the Rankings page and the Rogue Activity page to show timestamps more consistent with the Attacks page.
- Modified the Attacks page to allow the attacker and the defender to review the battle.
- Modified the opening page to provide more concise information.
- Modified Rogue Stealth Upgrades - shouldn't take forever to reach level 2 and 3 now.
- Modified the Temple donations - they aren't quite as greedy now.
- Fixed the table coloring code to actually color the tables in Mozilla/Firefox correctly.

Generation 8 (planned changes)
- More special events added.
- Possibly another mini-game for the Tavern; we're pondering how best to implement it.
- (Potential) Add Alliances, to allow X players to 'band together' and protect each other in time of attack. This is still being pushed out because as it stands, defense isn't an issue for anyone.
- Got an idea for Gen 8? Site mail Haven with it!